Debate on our road last Monday: me versus Nebraska Man. Winner – nobody.

Leaf falls below

How many of you watched the national presidential debate? Hands up, please.

Yes, I see that you and you and you watched it. A bunch of you didn’t.

I didn’t either.

I have already made my mind up where to cast this vote–and it’s not the current president of the United States of America.

I might write paragraph after paragraph stating all personal political views, but that’s not what this post is about. It simply hurts too much to share my frustration about the current political situation, and those words would not change a single person’s mind, except perhaps that very rare person who hasn’t yet claimed a political opinion in this wild & crazy 2020 year we’re living.

It seems like we’ve all reached our definitive beliefs and opinions and we really mostly don’t know how to talk to one another civilly anymore. Case in point: the presidential debate. (My husband listened to all two hours of the debacle and can talk intelligently about his takeaways, as can other family members.)

The point of this blog post is that I had my own “political debate” on Monday afternoon. It happened so unexpectedly and shocked me to the core. Here’s what happened:

I walked slowly up the road on a beautiful late September afternoon. Smiling, happy, delighted with autumn red and orange and yellow leaves. Smelling the wet dirt. Listening to geese honking–maybe somewhere down near the bay. Happy because I’d just posted a FUN blog about chickens and ducks and storytellers. Oh what a perfect afternoon! Grin, grin.

A couple approached. Very unusual–to see fellow walkers on our rural road. But hello walkers? You’re from Nebraska, you say? Oh, one of you was born here, and you’re coming back to spend time at the family camp? Wonderful–oh haven’t we met walking on the road a few years ago?

Light, lovely conversation. My smile increased.


The smiling gentleman started talking about the coronavirus. And then lambasted Democrat governors. And it slid quickly downhill from there…into political/virus nightmare-land.

My favorite fall picture from 2012

He kept smiling. He reached the part of his monologue where he shared that “really, you know, only 9,000 people have died of the virus”. That’s when my smile disappeared, this heart started racing, and the Beesley Road debate started. Biden vs. Trump. Drue vs. Nebraska Man.

You must know–if you know me at all–that I really do TRY to listen respectfully to another person’s opinions. To listen below what they’re saying into their often good human heart. To allow them their space, integrity and right to express themselves.

But I find this particular 9,000 statistic unpalatable as someone who has studied virus statistics daily for over six months. Here’s what I might have said if I had time to logically and calmly think: Yes, Nebraska Man. You may be right in that 9,000 folks died SOLELY of coronavirus in the U.S. with no other symptoms or causes of death. But 200,000 others have died of complications and underlying conditions related to the virus. And it’s probably even more than the official count. Over ONE MILLION world-wide, and it’s not a Democrat-Republican thing around the entire globe.

You are attempting to minimize the virus–to say it’s not as much a killer as we’ve been “led to believe”. You’re trying to make a political point that the lockdowns and quarantines were misguided. You’re urging individual rights versus a common health care crisis. Heck, you may even hold conspiracy theories. (OK, wouldn’t have said that last sentence.)

As he accosted this innocent walker with his opinions–OK, gentle reader–I could not remain silent. Not one second longer.

Looking down our road

“You are wrong about your statistics, and I do not believe them at all,” said I in strong assertive tones. “This does not take into account–“

And, gentle reader, he pulled a Trump! He started talking over me. TALKING ON TOP OF MY WORDS! He wouldn’t even allow me to speak!

What’s a heart-pounding formerly-happy walker to do?

I made a fierce decision to keep TALKING OVER HIM.

We kept talking sentence over sentence for at least two minutes, neither one really hearing what the other said.

(The poor hapless wife looked horrified, utterly horrified, at the direction this conversation was heading. She, too, thought they were just having a nice happy rural road walk in beautiful Michigan’s Upper Peninsula.)

We then basically said goodbye.

“Stay well, stay healthy!” the wife called as we parted, attempting to clear the air.

I walked–rather, marched–up the road trying to calm down.

First takeaway: I was kinda proud of myself for speaking up and not remaining silent, and not endlessly listening with respectful compassion. YES! Sometimes it’s necessary to open the mouth and tell what we believe.

Second: Neither one of us changed any opinions one iota from this exchange. No winners here.

Third: I could have expressed myself in a calm rational way that didn’t talk over him, wasn’t condescending, looked for common ground. (More along the lines of Non-Violent Communication, a book I must open up and actually now read.)

After hearing about the presidential debate the next night–I truly felt more compassion for Biden. How in the world does one respond when someone tries to talk over you? I also vowed to learn how to better respond in situations like this in the future.

Rough times we’re living in, right?

P.S. If any random passerby reader wants to debate or argue in the comments–it’s not gonna happen. I’m more interested in how we can become better communicators and compassionate human beings, rather than pounding each other with sharp axes and knives of cutting words, each trying to score our points. (Still learning on this end! You too? Or have you mastered this “art”?)

About Kathy

I live in the middle of the woods in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. Next to Lake Superior's cold shores. I love to blog.
This entry was posted in October 2020 and tagged , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

65 Responses to Debate on our road last Monday: me versus Nebraska Man. Winner – nobody.

  1. Larissa says:

    What gorgeous pictures!

    I think that the search for common ground is one of the reasons I’ve turned into a bit of a grief nerd. Part of our problem as humans is that common ground often involves things we don’t want to feel. How do we inhabit that ground together if we’re not even willing to look at it?

    In other news, I lost a debate with our dishwasher on Monday.

    • Kathy says:

      Yes, Larissa, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I certainly don’t often want to feel the grief and pain that comes up in situations like these. But there’s a softness that can arise when this vulnerability happens. I am feeling a little scared now about *coming out* politically on this blog after all these years of *mostly* remaining silent. But it also feels empowering.

      So sorry about your dishwasher. 😦

  2. I did watch the debate and it was an extremely painful thing to witness. We are living in very dark times… I’m feeling even more compassion for Biden, too. I’m so sorry you had a run-in with a Trumpie, and so unexpectedly and on such a nice day! I’m proud of you for speaking up, even if it was an exercise in futility.

    You did come home with some beautiful fall color pictures, though, which have brightened my day! Your yellows seem to be prominent now – will you get any reds and more oranges as the season goes on? I love all the yellows contrasting with the greens in the third picture, and the low lying cloud (or is that smoke?) gently covering the valley…

    • Kathy says:

      I admire you for being able to stay with the pain of that debate. It was a hard run-in on a perfectly nice fall afternoon, but it was a particularly hopeless exchange.
      It is mostly yellow tinges here now, but there are areas with huge splashes of colors, too. Also areas where the leaves are falling off the trees already. That is mist/fog in that picture and it’s one of my all-time favorites. Thanks for your support, always.

  3. Tilly travel says:

    I saw a little of the debate on the news here in the UK, I will admit I was gob smacked, (lost for words) at their behavior. I would say it was like watching a couple of children in the playground at least children have the excuse of not being mature. I will admit to a smile when Biden told Trump to shut up then said I can’t get a word in edge ways.

    Good for you for standing your ground, in situations like this I usually resort to making my smile even bigger and say ‘well you are entitle to your opinion and I mine, good day to you’ then I walk away, leaving them standing there.

    Bright Blessings

  4. John K says:

    It is obvious you spend more time on Beasley Road than on Main Street. Mr. Danner has many friends in town and they are equally disagreeable. For the first time, we are considering not renewing our subscription to the Sentinel due to Mr. Danner and his positions.

    • Kathy says:

      John, I do spend more time in the woods than in town. It’s a lot nicer out here, and a person can remain (naively?) oblivious to the fighting humans everywhere. I know a lot of people in town think differently than I do. A lot of my relatives as well. Such a divisive society these days… 😦

  5. Carol says:

    Your beautiful pictures make me want to travel down those roads, just gawking.
    As to your unwelcome confrontation – great way to ruin a good day, huh? I’ve had too many of those types of confrontation -not in person though, so it was easier to walk away from them. If only I was good at walking away. Slowly by slowly, I’ve learned to comment less on those FB comments that rile my inners, although every now and then I cannot hold back. You’re so right – it’s all so futile, because if those who support Trump continue to do so despite all that has gone on, if they can blind themselves to his words, his activities, his ruthlessness, nothing I say is going to change anything.
    Oh please, let this election end, and give me strength to accept what comes and deal with what follows.

    • Kathy says:

      Carol, it was kinda odd to juxtapose those beautiful pictures in between all the human ugliness, right? Maybe it’s a learning curve we all have to go through–learning when it’s right to walk away, learning when we need to take a full stand. But also aware we probably won’t change another’s opinions. Your last sentence reminds me of the Serenity Prayer. May we all get through it…all of us…Amen.

  6. dawnkinster says:

    You are brave. I don’t know how I would have reacted if I had a face-to-face conversation with a person that says stuff like that. Well. Maybe I have sort of had those conversations. When someone starts down that road I usually lift an eyebrow and say something like “Really” and they usually pipe down. But the tension between us doesn’t go away. It might be better if I said something, but I haven’t studied the numbers like you have, so I’m never sure of exact specifics and don’t want to get into a debate. I think I could do like Tilly said, something like “I guess we just disagree, have a nice day.” That would work for me.

    I’ve tried not to express my disgust toward 45 on my blog. I feel like you do, that it’s a kind of coming out. I now understand more what it must be like for a gay person to tell their friends and families when they think it’s going to not be accepted. Most of my friends are (apparently, from their FB posts) Trump supporters. I haven’t responde to their sometimes disgusting posts. I scroll past. I started a post to ‘come out’ but didn’t post it as it was a rambling mess. I posted the Elissa post instead which I thought was sort of uplifting. In fact the Elissa campaign shared it on the closed campaign volunteer FB group. That made me smile. Still…I have quite a bit of resentment that my friends are freely posting their loyalties and I have kept silent about mine. Not their fault I just feel threatened to try to be the lone Democrate out there.

    • Kathy says:

      Dawn–exactly! I have been thinking a lot about how it must feel for a gay person to come out. This feels a little like I imagine. It’s taken some bravery to write this blog–but it didn’t feel like bravery to have that encounter with Nebraska Man. It just felt like I couldn’t stand being silent a second longer. It would have been different if this was a neighbor or friend or loved one. Then a different approach would have been necessary. But maybe because I knew we might never see each other again…? It is so hard to figure this all out, to navigate this territory. Was so proud of you about the Elissa campaign sign! Thank you so much for the support. Feeling a little vulnerable after writing this.

  7. Susan D. says:

    I think you are brave and wonderful. ❤️

  8. Christina H says:

    Oh, Kathy, thanks for sharing your thoughts about this experience. I don’t always get to read your blog posts, but when I do I always enjoy them so much. The situation you found yourself in is a very tricky one to navigate and one I don’t think many of us handle very well. In myself I’ve observed that the times I’m more successful is when I am in the middle of a conversation with two other people who have very strong opposing views. In those situations I’m able to play mediator and calmly ask questions and point out flaws in an argument or other possibilities. Somehow I’m able to get less riled up when others are already clearly passionately expressing their views, but as I reflect on those past cases I also realize they’re not situations where the basic facts are wrong; they’re more like debating the merits of different social systems. I haven’t interacted with someone who doesn’t understand the seriousness of this Coronavirus, but if I did I’m sure it wouldn’t go well. Good for you for speaking up and not being forced into silence by his shouting and for attempting to poke a hole in that bubble of false news he’s immersed in. You’re right, though, most likely those types of exchanges won’t enlighten the other person, but maybe it’s better to try than not?

    • Kathy says:

      Christina, I found your comment in the spam folder this morning–and am so delighted to see you here! That is a very interesting perspective you shared, about playing mediator as two opposing viewpoints are aired. That would be kind of cool, unlike this situation where I felt statistics were being skewed and politicized without any regard for science. Still not sure about better to try than not, but it occurred to me this morning that this man was also a stand-in for other family/friends with similar viewpoints. By the way, read Barry one of your FB posts the other day and he was mightily impressed and even wanted me to reach out and tell you. Blessings out there to you in wildfire land…may the smoke stay at bay….may we learn to navigate through these challenging times.

  9. I have dear friends and family members who think oppositely (and when did it even become OPPOSITE, rather than just DIFFERENT???), of me politically, and the times are such that I find myself wondering if I’ve misjudged them all these years. Might they be stupid, or at least ignorant, or (dread) racist, and I just never noticed? I have borrowed a line from Trump, himself, as much as I hate to admit it. When trouble starts brewing, of the political sort, and I am unable or un-inclined to jump in, I say, “I think there are good people on both sides of this issue,” and let it drop. Unfortunately, that’s not always the case, and I have found myself, like you, trying to shore up my own beliefs, though I know there is no hope of convincing anyone who holds a contrary opinion.

    • Kathy says:

      What a good point, Cindy. What if we could all just calmly think differently rather than opposite? What I find is peculiar is how we judge others for their opinions, but when we’re not talking about our opinions we can be laughing and enjoying each other’s company. I will remember your sentence for future encounters. There are good folks on both sides of the issue. Thank you.

  10. debyemm says:

    You have my total compassionate sympathy. HUGS.

  11. Joanne says:

    Oh gosh, Kathy, I would walk away from someone who continually talks over me. It’s not even about what his, or your, argument was about, it’s the rudeness of talking over another person. That’s just not on!

    I watched most of your US presidential debate. Are you surprised? I knew we would hear the post-mortem results for days after, so I decided to pause for morning tea (that’s when it was broadcast live in Australia, at 11am) and listen. Some of the content went over my head because I don’t understand specifics of US politics, but I did note certain things – Trump dominated the debate, but that’s a given, it’s what we expect of Trump. Biden was confused, but that’s becoming more evident as each day passes. My main concern regarding the debate presentation was the adjudicator – he should have allowed the two candidates time to “debate” the arguments each had presented during their two minutes, but he didn’t. The adjudicator talked more over Trump and Biden than the candidates did over each other.

    You might be able to answer a question for husband and I, because we are totally baffled by this – why was Biden referred to as “Vice President” during the debate? Isn’t Mike Pence the Vice President?

    • Kathy says:

      Joanne, I think I just got steaming mad and didn’t even think of walking away. It just all took me by surprise on a perfectly beautiful afternoon walk. It sounds like the rules governing the debate will change for the next time. Btw, woke up to discover the president and his wife have tested positive for the virus. That was unexpected. I can actually answer your question about Biden being referred to as the VP. Apparently, in the US, once you’re a president or vice president you are always referred to by that title. Pence is the current VP. Congratulations on being more up on US debate politics than I am!

      • Joanne says:

        Thank you for explaining why it’s “Vice-President Biden”, although that sounds strange to us here in Australia as when a person leaves office they are “Former Prime Minister”, for example.
        We heard about Donald Trump having the virus. We also heard that some people are making rather rude comments about him, including the deputy premier of Queensland here in Australia, unfortunately. Most people here are horrified by the comments, and as one news presenter said, politics shouldn’t enter into it, you wish people well when they are unwell, regardless of who they are. I hope Trump has a fast recovery.

        • Kathy says:

          I think it’s strange too, Joanne. Yes, people all over the world (and in our country too) are saying negative things about Trump. I do not want him to die or get terribly sick. My prayer is that he learn compassion, respect and humility from his experience. He has not shown those qualities to me in his term as president. That would be my prayer for all of us, whether we get the virus or not.

          • Joanne says:

            Absolutely. If Trump showed some heart, which he rarely does, I’m sure he would be a great president. My concern, after listening to the debate, is that Biden described measures he would implement as president that some state premiers have tried in Australia and they have failed. Trump has a huge amount of support in Australia, as he is taking a similar stance to our Prime Minister, Scott Morrison, who is doing brilliantly at keeping Covid cases low and the economy healthy here. Time will tell. We really are living in unpredicted times.

            • Kathy says:

              I don’t have any answers, Joanne, and really don’t know. I do know that what Trump has been doing–basically downplaying and dismissing the seriousness of the virus–has not worked here at all. The covid cases have not been low at all, and have spiraled out of control.
              In some states, the cost has been astronomically high. The states that have done masking and social distancing have fared better than others–although not in all cases. It seems to be a “crap shoot” in many ways. Glad I’m not in a decision-making capacity these days!

              • Joanne says:

                It’s an incredibly fickle virus. Just one state in Australia is in lockdown and it’s mandatory to wear masks outside of home. They are even prohibited from travelling further than a five kilometres radius from home, yet they cannot shake covid. All the others states, where such strict rules have not been implemented have hardly any cases at all. In my state, the most heavily populated in the country, there has been no new cases for a week now. I agree, all the leaders of countries around the world have the most unenviable jobs right now!

                • Kathy says:

                  Yes, totally crazy. My mom and I talk about this a lot. It’s like Russian Roulette. You just don’t know. You can have tons of social gatherings and no cases…and then just one gathering with a super-spreader and it’s all over. Where we live there are so many people not wearing masks and not social distancing and the cases are going crazy. In neighboring Wisconsin (where there wasn’t masking and social distancing as much as Michigan) the hospitals are now at 85% capacity and there are 2,800 new cases a day. Our Upper Peninsula is getting hit particularly hard now. I guess we’ve just both agreed that it’s impossible to figure this one out! Hopefully we all stay safe and healthy.

                • Joanne says:

                  Maybe stay close to home for a while, Kathy, if cases in your area are increasing! We just don’t know enough about this virus. Stay safe. I hope your mum is keeping well too. xx

  12. I watched 1/2 of the debate and then decided that was enough of that. Political theater isn’t my kind of theater. Chicken coop and duck pen drama is more my speed.

    I like soup. Do you like soup?

    • Kathy says:

      Lunar, that’s why this may be one of a handful of 1000-plus blog posts in ten years where I have even mentioned politics. Far too painful. I love soup. So many kinds of soup—especially in the fall. So yummy!

  13. Alanna says:

    I had to chuckle because my husband told me first thing this morning that Trump and Melania tested positive for the coronavirus. Then I read about your run in with the Trumpie on a beautiful fall morning. This one’s gonna be hard to argue!

    • Kathy says:

      Alanna, yes my daughter sent an email in the middle of the night–well, it was probably evening for you guys out in Oregon–with the news. What a way to start the day! Could hardly believe these latest developments.

  14. Lori says:

    Shouting matches and talking over people – that’s been my entire life. I’m Italian. I don’t recall a time where I didn’t have to talk over people to be heard. I’m trained in it.

    For me, it’s a challenge to keep my mouth shut on the issues. So, this “Trumpie” is going to respectfully move along. 🙏

    • Kathy says:

      Wow, Lori, I never thought about the cultural differences of talking over people. How fascinating. Come to think of it, I have witnessed Italians doing just this, usually gesturing all the while. Hmmm. In my family if anyone even raised his or her voice passionately we were looked at suspect, like we’ve crossed the line into insanity. We were trained to be good and quiet and, heaven forbid that we ever argue. Probably one reason I rarely talk politics in public.

      Was wondering if you might comment. I have enjoyed our few talks about differences of political opinions over the years. You’ve always widened my perspective. And never talked over me. 🙂

      • Lori says:

        Thanks for understanding, Kathy. Yes, we talk over each other, hands gesturing wildly. 😏 But we always hug and kiss goodbye afterward. We don’t remain divided, unlike our sad society right now.

        I also mentioned I’ve needed to talk over people to feel like I’m being heard. Which is also sad, and could be why some others do it as well.

        • Kathy says:

          That is really sweet. That it’s kind of built into your culture to disagree wildly and then kiss. Oh how lovely! But also, yes, that’s why I kept talking over that Nebraska guy. Because I needed to feel I was being heard. And otherwise couldn’t get a word in edgewise. It is sad. Love that WE can talk even with our differences! xoxo

  15. Ally Bean says:

    What a jackass! I cannot imagine how anyone could behave like he did. I’m used to people wearing Trumpian clothes or decorating their vehicles with gibberish, but that man’s behavior is aggressive. I’m horrified.

    • Kathy says:

      Good morning, Ally Bean! You know, it’s weird, I too was horrified last Monday. When I wrote this it felt like trying to process what happened. Yesterday didn’t even want to go walking on the road. But today it’s kinda started to fade and I’m not getting an emotional response any more. Funny how things can change in a week. Things just keep changing like crazy on every front…

  16. Val says:

    Other half wanted to sit up and watch the debate which, on British TV, was on at 2am. I talked him out of it. He and I don’t exactly see eye to eye on politics a lot of the time, so I hear my fair (or unfair) share of crap and nonsense about all this stuff on a daily basis. Most of the time I keep my mouth shut, sometimes I let rip. But he hasn’t (so far!) come out with the rubbish that that guy came out with on the road with his wife, and with you. What total nonsense. That’s a man who can’t think. You can, and you do. Well done for saying what you felt at the time.

    There’s nothing wrong in expressing yourself in the moment, but I do agree that keeping things balanced is probably a better way to go about things. Hugs to you, Kathy.

    • Kathy says:

      Val, it must be so challenging to have your other half think differently in political matters than you do. I have a few friends in similar situations, and I always wonder how that goes in a marriage or partnership. But now that I’ve typed those last two sentences–am thinking about the different matters where Barry and I disagree. (And sometimes even politically.) Like you, it’s mostly a matter of keeping mouth shut and then letting it out. Hugs to you, too, Val.

      • Val says:

        If I think he’s being too much of an arsehole, I usually just grimace and go and do something else. Trouble is a lot of the time he does what my dad did, and plays ‘Devil’s Advocate’ (to get a reaction) so sometimes I’m not even sure if what he’s saying is what he believes. But really, there’s so much more to a relationship that what one disagrees with that it balances out. x

        • Kathy says:

          Oh, devil’s advocate–oh yes. I have even been known to do that. (hangs head in shame). Smile. You are so right with your last sentence and I am trying to remember this during these challenging days.

          • Val says:

            I expect I have, too. But there’s a limit to it, or should be. And yep – keep focussed on the positive, on the good, in a relationship.

  17. Stacy says:

    You took the bait and then got bitten. It’s ok. We’ve all been there. My takeaway is, I don’t take the bait. Because no matter how innocuous I think my comments might be, someone will disagree. That opens the door to contention, and I don’t want to enter that room anymore. I’m sorry your walk turned into yet another battle. XOXO

  18. Osa Holmes says:

    What came to mind for me, gazing at the stunning colors and symbolism of letting go, and reading your raw and yet magical words….. [and after a flash back of watching the debate in my living room and actually shouting at the TV for them to just stop and listen :(]. The autumn is the time of being nourished by releasing what is no longer needed and allowing that release yo ease into the quiet of winter and her wisdom [much of what I adore about you].. and so I long for a handful of leaves. To respond with in those moments. I’d love to simply hand one to a speaker too stuck in ego to listen and state, ” with respect for you, I share this rather than my now reflections about this”. On a good day, I can pull that off. On one too wrought with the chaos news, not so much. you/re a dear. All light and blessings to you. Osa

    • Kathy says:

      Osa, this is a most beautiful comment. Imagine being able to pull that off indeed–to share a simple sentiment and action rather than responding from ego’s indignation. On a good day I can pull something like this off, too. But this pandemic has showed me that there are huge places inside where I am not healed or embodied at all yet. I have always admired your quiet deep wisdom as well. May we all be filled with that light and blessings. So very nice to see you, my friend from long-ago (and now!) It seems like your life is full of changes right now, and I wish you all the best. Thank you so much for pausing to read and share. xoxo

  19. Reggie says:

    Gosh, Kathy, that must have been such a stressful experience; what a harsh contrast to your beautiful, peaceful surroundings. I watched bits of the debate afterwards (I couldn’t bear more than that). It’s one thing to disagree and to hold a different point of view or to think that your policies or beliefs are better for whatever reason. But I was left dumbfounded and speechless at the sheer staggering rudeness, crassness and belligerence on display – quite apart from the constant lying. I am so sorry your homeland is going through such upheavals, Kathy; I so wish people could get along better. May your heart be soothed, your tension melt away, and your sorrows be eased. Much love.

    • Kathy says:

      Oh, sigh, dear Reggie, our homeland is going through SO MUCH upheaval. It’s nuts living here on one level. On another level it’s beautiful, peaceful and loving. It’s hard to wrap our minds around how something can be simultaneously so hateful and so good. Sighing again. xoxoxo

  20. Reading about your encounter with the jackass caused my heart to be faster and raised my dander. I have found that the best defense against a Twittler supporter is to have no defense at all. The folks that support Twitter are often much like him and are looking for a confrontation so if you don’t respond and simply walk away it makes the aggressor look ignorant and left holding the bag. I follow several liberals on FB who are excellent writers with a sizable following. Now and then a Trumpette will chime in with their obvious ignorant remarks and lies.

    • Kathy says:

      My goodness, I was sooo mad at him that day–and sooo mad at everyone who thinks like him! Your strategy has often been my strategy–no defense at all, no confrontations. But the day I met this fellow it was impossible to stay silent a second longer!! P.S. If you can’t find me on Facebook, send me your FB name and I will try to friend you.

      • Yvonne Daniel (my header is the one with the chocolate lab) and my handle is a pic of one of my now deceased cats. I have two accounts and the other one, I could not get into one day about two years ago and I had to create a new account. My current one will have petspeopleandlife listed under my header. I can’t think of your last name so shoot it back to me if you will and I will look for you.

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